The Mostly Real Estate Podcast, with Declan Spring

#54 - Megan Micco - How Berkeley's Climate Policies Are Reshaping Property Ownership

• Declan Spring

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Berkeley's revised energy savings ordinance and a proposed fire safety ordinance will significantly impact homeowners and real estate transactions starting January 2026. Third-generation Berkeley resident and REALTOR® Megan Micco shares essential details about the changes, compliance requirements, and strategies for navigating these new regulations.

• BESO (Berkeley Energy Savings Ordinance) will require actual energy efficiency improvements rather than just assessments starting January 1, 2026.
• Properties must achieve six credits from a menu of energy upgrade options or place a $5,000 deposit in escrow at closing.
• Heat pump water heaters, heat pump HVAC systems, and knob-and-tube replacement each provide full compliance with six credits.
• Buyers receive the full $5,000 deposit back after making improvements within 2-3 years.

• Starting 2027-2029, a nine-county Bay Area ban will prohibit new gas furnaces, water heaters, and eventually stoves, and all new gas appliance installs.

• Proposed new Berkeley EMBER Ordinance will require a five-foot fire-resistant "Zone Zero" buffer around homes in a newly created high fire zone
• City Council votes June 17 on expanding fire safety requirements to a proposed "Zone 4" area from Grizzly Peak to Wildcat

For more information about Berkeley climate initiatives, contact the City of Berkeley.

Megan Micco is a licensed CA REALTOR®, and Broker Associate at Compass, DRE#01930373

Declan Spring is a licensed CA REALTOR® DRE#01398898




Declan Spring:

This is Declan Spring. Welcome to the Mostly Real Estate Podcast. My guest today I'm excited to have her on is Megan Meeko. Megan is a Berkeley native and she's a Berkeley homeowner. She's a realtor with Compass here in Berkeley and Megan and I are going to talk about some changes to some local Berkeley ordinances point of sale ordinances. So if you're a Berkeley homeowner or you know a Berkeley homeowner, this could be useful to you and obviously, if you're a realtor doing any kind of transaction volume in Berkeley, this is going to be very useful info too, if you're not already aware of it, and probably worthwhile sharing with your community of clients who have Berkeley property or may have an interest in buying property in Berkeley. Okay, without further ado, here's my conversation with Megan Miko. Megan, thanks so much for stopping by the studio today so that we can talk about all this upcoming change to BESO. How do you pronounce it?

Megan Micco:

I pronounce it BESO. Thank you so much for having me back. It's really always a delight to sit down with you, Declan.

Declan Spring:

Oh, thanks. Yeah, so you're BESO. You know there's so many words that you see written, but you don't hear spoken.

Megan Micco:

Like avid avid.

Declan Spring:

Yeah, what do you say? I think I say avvid, I say the same. So Biso, biso, biso and Beso Well, we're going to talk about both of those things today. They're one and the same, and so and I you know I value your input so much on this because I'm not a Berkeley resident, I'm a Richmond resident, so this is even closer to home for you. It's not just your community of clients in Berkeley, but it's also you. You and I chatted once before for a podcast I was doing for the Association of Realtors and then I had a chance to meet you at your house and I really enjoyed that and learned a little bit about you. But let's tell everybody about you where you're born and raised, your connection to Berkeley and all of that good stuff, and how long you've been a realtor and how you got into the business.

Megan Micco:

Oh, all the juicy details of that good stuff and how long you've been a realtor and how you got into the business. All the juicy details, all the good stuff. Berkeley. So I'm a third generation Berkeley resident. My grandma moved to Berkeley in the 1940s. My mom got all three of her degrees, including her PhD, from UC Berkeley. I went to UC Berkeley, my husband went to Haas. We live two blocks from the university, so we're a deeply blue and gold Berkeley family.

Declan Spring:

Yes.

Megan Micco:

And in terms of the genesis for me getting into real estate, I was working in plaintiff law in San Francisco, a law firm called Leifke, Brazer, Hyman and Bernstein. If you listen to NPR, you probably heard the commercials.

Declan Spring:

Yes.

Megan Micco:

And my broker called me and said I think you would love real estate. I think you'd be great. You're great with people. You love contracts. Give it a year. If you don't like it, you can always go back to law school. In fact, if you have a law degree, you can just practice real estate anyhow and I figured I would give it a go. It was just an exciting thing to try and I adore it. I've never looked back. It's so great to work with so many smart agents and help buyers and sellers and get to look at gorgeous houses, and it's really it's one of the joys of my life. I love it so much.

Declan Spring:

Well, you're really, really good at it, and of course you're also. You were joined at some point by your husband, jeff, who is just amazing, but he's not really as public facing as you, but I'm fortunate that I've gotten to know him a little bit in recent years. And when? When did you guys start working together?

Megan Micco:

Jeff joined my practice right around the time of the pandemic and so I needed help. It's just really hard to run a company yourself and do everything and everything well. So marketing operations, business development it was too much for me and so I knew I needed to make a strategic hire and I started recruiting my husband. Yeah, and fortunately for me, he decided to join. But you know, I really wanted the decision to be wholly his. He was being recruited for another sort of C-level job and I did not want him to have any regrets. So I let him interview and go through the process and he ultimately decided to go for a better lifestyle. I put in a home gym for him.

Declan Spring:

Gave him some really good benefits.

Megan Micco:

And it's great working with him. But you're right, he's not as public-facing. So many people just see him at open houses or on social media.

Declan Spring:

Yeah, he goes out, he does the work, but he's not as public-facing. So, briefly, for those of us who work with, you know a partner whom we live with and share a household with. What are just, what are the joys and what are the downsides?

Megan Micco:

That's such a great question. I know you can relate to this.

Declan Spring:

Yeah.

Megan Micco:

I have to be very intentional about not talking about work when I'm at the dinner table with our kids, because I want to really focus on them and be present. And again, we're excited about the industry and we love what we do. So it's really easy to allow that to spill over in sort of normal social time, and I'm sure you experience this when you meet with friends or in a social environment. Everyone wants a market update. What's going on? What do you think about inflation?

Megan Micco:

They want you to see around the corner for them and help them kind of figure it out that's which is both a compliment, and it's hard to compartmentalize your work and have some amount of socialization without work yeah so.

Megan Micco:

But I mean, one of the benefits is I just run upstairs and have a quick call or I send him a meet and we can just quickly discuss things and it's. It's just really a joy and to feel like we're aligned and our interests are together and we're working on this thing together for our benefit is just a special feeling.

Declan Spring:

Yeah, it's beautiful. You guys do it so well together.

Megan Micco:

Thank you.

Declan Spring:

You know you really really do and it's great and a lot of, there's quite a few agents who you know are partnered in business with their, you know with their spouse, or you know, romantic partner. So it's amazing and you do it really really well.

Megan Micco:

Thank you, Declan. I think it's like cottage cheese you either love it or you hate it. It's divisive yeah.

Declan Spring:

That's lovely. Well, let's first of all talk about what the heck is BESO? Sure, so it's the Berkeley Energy Savings Ordinance, right, correct? It's had a few iterations over time. It was RICO at one point.

Megan Micco:

Do you remember RICO? I remember that at the very beginning of my career, but I don't think I ever did a transaction under RICO.

Declan Spring:

I should put on my glasses here so I can properly read what we have in front of us. Oh, it looks like. Yeah, you're right. So it looks like Besso came in in 2015 and replaced Rico Right or Reco.

Megan Micco:

None of this is particularly clear in pronunciation.

Declan Spring:

Yeah, I know it's funny right.

Megan Micco:

Dealer's choice.

Declan Spring:

But let's just say well, let's establish this as a starting point for the conversation. So we're talking about Besso, which came in in 2015. And it's peculiar to Berkeley. Berkeley has its own way with ordinances, don't you think?

Megan Micco:

People's Republic of Berkeley, the People's Republic of Berkeley.

Declan Spring:

Yeah, so we've all been dealing with BESO for a while and it's had changes. Now let me see, I want to go back. I think there was a point when I do remember member Rico, I believe with Rico there was actually a requirement to get some very minor repairs to the property, like there was weather stripping on doors, and so there was a requirement to actually take some action. Okay, and then so it was kind of interesting when Besso came out right, because there was no longer a requirement you, you know, to scramble in transaction to do anything. We just needed to get the inspection or defer the inspection.

Megan Micco:

Right To aggregate the data is the way I saw it.

Declan Spring:

Okay, yeah, how did you see? So how would you describe the current iteration of Besso?

Megan Micco:

So the way I present it to my clients is you know it's a point of sale requirement that requires an energy assessment. So you'll be given a number based on your assessment, from zero to 10. And you know the less energy efficient would be 10, a perfect score would be a perfect zero and the you know there's really no mandated improvements under the current BISO. However, the way I present it is as a roadmap to energy efficiency.

Megan Micco:

So, what improvements can you make to increase the comfort of your home? By sealing the envelope, reducing methane gas, by taking out, you know, anything that burns fossil fuels, like stoves and furnaces and things like that?

Declan Spring:

Yeah.

Megan Micco:

And then you can choose at some point in your updates to do those things.

Declan Spring:

Yeah.

Megan Micco:

But, as we know and we're going to talk about, that's now shifting.

Declan Spring:

That's shifting. I think we all knew it was going to shift. I mean now, weren't you for a period of time, weren't you involved with the Association of Realtors on? Like the green.

Megan Micco:

I'm a certified green realtor and I was a 2023 Climate Action Chair on the Bridge Association of Realtors, so heading that community that I took over from Arlene Baxter, who is our historic and climate maven. That's been in real estate a long time, has so much institutional knowledge on the city and is just a great resource. So if you have questions, she's a wonderful person to chat with, both about historic homes and energy efficiency. Really amazing depth of knowledge.

Declan Spring:

So you were fairly close to you, know the behind the scenes and advocating and just being involved in general and you know being part of your community.

Megan Micco:

And that, but I think one of the main goals of the committee at least when. I was chairing, it was not only to raise awareness, but to encourage adoption and provide a roadmap. And if anyone's listening, if realtors are out there and they want information on how to do these things, my door is always open. Please call me. I mean, I really think the more we can work together on raising awareness and professionalism and talking about these regulations, the sooner we can all understand them and get on board the faster we'll get to clean energy, which is so important for the environment.

Declan Spring:

Okay, a little side trip there, but let's get back to our base. So I think we all felt that at some point the city was going to. You know, do something else or make another move. Now I don't know how early on you were. When did you become aware of the upcoming changes?

Megan Micco:

That's a really good question. It's also murky, looking back Probably. I mean I've been in touch with people at this city so for a couple years now that it's been kind of brewing and I knew changes were coming.

Declan Spring:

How much is a base inspection these days?

Megan Micco:

I think they're about five to six hundred dollars. There's a little bit of variance depending on how much the inspector charges and then the filing fee is about a hundred and ten dollars.

Declan Spring:

So yeah, so normally nowadays, I think most of the time, sellers will try to defer that to buyers and buyers will pay for this.

Megan Micco:

As you know, everything is negotiable and I think it depends a bit if it's a buyer's market and a been the standard in our local area.

Declan Spring:

Thank you for pointing out that everything's negotiable, because that seems to get lost sometimes.

Megan Micco:

Nothing's set in stone. It's all just a negotiation, and hopefully a friendly one that leaves happy parties at the end on both sides.

Declan Spring:

Of course, and we all work super hard for that to happen.

Megan Micco:

Yes.

Declan Spring:

But you're right. In a market like this and most of Berkeley, where there's bound to be multiple offers, buyers are looking to be as as possible, so they're going to pick up the cost of that inspection and then, I think, within six months am I right? Within six months of the property closing, the buyers, the new owners, are then going to get their property inspected for 600 bucks or whatever. Yes, and then the city is going to get their information with respect to that particular property at that particular time.

Megan Micco:

And that's it, yep.

Declan Spring:

And now things are going to change. This is all set to change on January 1st. That's correct, right? So it's quite a list of changes coming in. So how do you want to? Let's walk through this. How do you want to do it? I'm going to hand the mic over to you and let's start talking about what the changes are.

Megan Micco:

Going to do it, I'm going to hand the mic over to you and let's start talking about what the changes are going to be Sure. So I think one way to think about it is there's now a point of sale requirement to actually make some changes to improve the energy efficiency of the house, where previously it was just to audit the house and get a score from zero to 10. So now we're looking at a point system that this city has established and there's going to be a deposit required from the buyers and sellers.

Megan Micco:

It's a $5,000 deposit generally going to be split, I presume so $2,500 from the seller, $2,500 from the buyer and escrow.

Declan Spring:

And that's only if the property doesn't meet the requirements.

Megan Micco:

That's right, there are some properties for exclusions, I think it's under 800 square feet. Some new construction aren't subject to this ordinance, so there are some carve-outs which would be important to talk to your agent about, just to make sure you have the current information. And then there's a point system so you can do certain improvements, and they even give a suggestion on what might be the most cost-effective update to make for people that are concerned or have fewer resources to dedicate to these upgrades.

Declan Spring:

Okay, so there's a minimum number of points required for compliance, correct, and then you have, like a menu of options.

Megan Micco:

That's right, and some may be pre-existing. Let's say, someone already decommissioned the knob and tube. That's going to give you some amount of points, so you might not have to do everything. You might just need to add two or three points to get to the full required six, and so you get a menu of options you can pick and choose. There's panel upgrades, solar chargers, there's a whole list. It's quite pretty extensive.

Declan Spring:

Okay, well, the way it seems to be set up now and this could change, and don't take this as gospel, but we're doing our best to give you accurate information. You should go to the city website, but it looks like our menu of options here and the points available for each item. We'll just go through it real quick. Heat pump water heater is six points, for example, or six credits.

Megan Micco:

So that would offer full compliance. Just that one upgrade, Just that one thing.

Declan Spring:

Right. So if somebody had an existing heat pump water heater, they would be compliant already. There'd be no, $5,000 deposit.

Megan Micco:

And that's the one that's most cost efficient. So the first one that you name tends to be the most cost efficient, right, and there's a bunch of rebates too, so people should look into rebates for it as well.

Declan Spring:

Okay, where should they look for rebates?

Megan Micco:

Bayrin is a great place. There's the Inflation Reduction Act. I should say I haven't checked on that recently. Hopefully it's still in place and they're offering rebates. But Inflation Reduction Act and Bayrin are two great resources.

Declan Spring:

Yes.

Megan Micco:

And I have a climate page on my website. So that's also something maybe we can link in the podcast so people can go to that.

Declan Spring:

Yeah, we'll get back to all of your contact info when we're wrapping up the conversation. So that's the first and best, I guess. What did you call most cost effective, right, correct. And then but we do have a long list we have a heat pump, hvac, which is also six credits, or six points. And knob and tube replacement is six credits, or six points, right, which is interesting. So all of those individually are meeting the requirement. Panel upgrade or smart panel is six points. Solar PV and battery storage six credits. So those are all the six credit items, or six point items. And then we drop down to like three point items, which are duct sealing and replacement.

Declan Spring:

A bidirectional EV charger that sounds interesting. There's EV chargers two credits. Induction ranges two credits. Window replacements two credits. Attic insulation two credits. Wall insulation two credits. Floor insulation one to two credits. Greywater system one to two credits. Gray water system one to two credits, okay. So, yeah, there's quite a lot you can select from and you know, it wouldn't surprise me if a good number of homes already have some of this stuff in them.

Megan Micco:

Absolutely. We pretty frequently see gray water systems. We see replaced windows, especially with our insurance challenges. A lot of sellers and buyers are getting upstream of decommissioning knob and tube and replacing them with modern Romex. So I'm optimistic and hopeful that some homes will have already gone through this to have met some part of the compliance.

Declan Spring:

An air sealing, one credit pre-wiring and two 40-volt receptacles a half credit per receptacle. So the new owners must complete the chosen upgrades within two years of the sale.

Megan Micco:

That's right.

Declan Spring:

With a possible one-year extension. So it's maybe three years, and then I guess they hold on to that for the three years, right, the five grand.

Megan Micco:

They do. And then actually what's an important and salient and kind of exciting point is, once the work is done, the buyer gets a full deposit back. So they'd be refunded the full $5,000, even though they only put $2,500 in. So for the seller, their 2,500 deposit is just now a fee and a part of selling. That's just going to be a debit on their line item on their net sheet. So there is a benefit to the buyers to do the work and potentially with rebates you might be able to get a heat pump water heater for under that $5,000. So you could potentially net some money and then maybe do some other energy efficiency upgrades.

Declan Spring:

Right and, and you know, my first thought, and I'm sure most people's first thought if you're listening to this right now is we're all worried about tariffs and labor costs. I mean, those are two things that dovetail horrendously well in our industry labor costs and the tariff stuff. So if I'm somebody in Berkeley who's got a property, I think I'm trying to figure this out as quickly as possible.

Megan Micco:

Absolutely.

Declan Spring:

I think there'll be a lot of demand for existing inventory of any of this stuff.

Megan Micco:

Yes, and also we're going into hot season. So if you're thinking about mini splits or a heat pump for HVAC at your house we're going into a peak season. So really planning ahead and making sure that you're booking ahead is smart.

Declan Spring:

That's very smart, you know. I didn't know and this is what's great to have this chat I wasn't aware of that $5,000 being fully refundable to the buyer.

Megan Micco:

Isn't that exciting? It's exciting, I mean. So we have to explain that to sellers though? Yes, we do. If sellers know about this and they were considering improving the energy efficiency of their house or let's say, with changing weather they want to put in air conditioning they might consider heat pump technology, which is kind of perfect for California with our temperate weather. So I think there are some use cases where sellers might do it upstream of selling, but I think if it's a burden, either financial or because you're older, it'll probably fall to when they sell.

Declan Spring:

Because it's basically like a mandatory credit to buyers. That's what it is really.

Megan Micco:

And it's relatively inexpensive to do. The $2,500 versus. Some of these projects are decommissioning knob and tube on a 2,000 square foot house. It's going to be pretty costly, and so I think it's both about consulting with your agent and understanding what upgrades are going to make the most amount of sense Can we make sure that we're making the property more attractive in terms of insurability? So all of these regulations really have it's a Venn diagram of making sure they make sense and improve the property so you can sell it for the best value.

Declan Spring:

Yes, absolutely so. Being a realtor in Berkeley has just become as ever. It's increasingly more about bringing awareness, helping people understand and navigate well ahead of time, educating our community, as we do at the, the association realtors advocating um trying to allow for these ordinances not to be as least burdensome as possible. Right, I mean.

Megan Micco:

I put something on my Instagram recently that just was a survey. Have you heard about the Ember initiative?

Declan Spring:

Yes.

Megan Micco:

And so 70% of people that responded to the poll and of course this is anecdotal, it's not statistically relevant said they'd heard of it. 30% had not. So, I think this presents a great opportunity to just pick up the phone, check on your clients, ask if they've heard about it. Do they want to schedule a call to go over things? We always want to be of service to our clients make sure that we're continuing to provide value and.

Megan Micco:

I think that checking in with them and going over these things you know, is a definite value add, absolutely, absolutely.

Declan Spring:

Everybody should be getting this information out as best we can. It's going to make life easier for everybody, and Lord knows we work on. I don't know the next time I'll see you on the other side of the table, megan, but it's always great when we run into agents who are well prepared for this kind of change. Let's just talk about exemptions, really, really quickly. You did mention exemptions earlier, but also condos are exempt, obviously, and ADUs are exempt, which is interesting. What else could we talk about here? First-time homebuyers in qualified programs are exempt. I have no idea what those qualified programs are.

Megan Micco:

There might be an income verification process for that. I'm not completely sure, but I think there might be an income component.

Declan Spring:

Yeah. So there's something there that people should dig in as they need to, so let's just do kind of a summary here again. So at time of sale for single family homes oh yeah, it's also in duplexes, right Duplexes, and it's not coming into effect for triplexes for a couple more years.

Megan Micco:

So that was my hesitation right there's a couple years until we get into kind of the bigger.

Declan Spring:

Yes, yeah, I think triplexes and fourplexes are gonna be, which are still residential and not considered commercial yet. Right, but the triplexes and the fourplexes I believe are 2028.

Megan Micco:

They're going to do a longer rollout.

Declan Spring:

We've got a longer rollout. So, again, sellers should have six credits worth of energy and resilience upgrades completed, and if they don't, then there's going to be a $5,000 deposit in escrow. And it's really just let's call it what it is. Again, it's a mandatory seller credit to buyers so that within three years at longest, those buyers can get up to six points worth of energy and resilience upgrades completed in their new home.

Megan Micco:

And the sooner we can get the information out. So thank you for doing the podcast. We'll rise the tide and people will be able to start to call, and one of the great things about our local agent community is they're so informed, able to start to call. And one of the great things about our local agent community is they're so informed, so bright, so collaborative and so hopefully people can start making phone calls to their colleagues and just saying can you give me the five minute update? We can all start getting on this soon.

Declan Spring:

Yeah, exactly. There's a couple of other things that I think are interesting and dovetail with this. Well, we'll just talk about one that's not Berkeley specific, but it's out there, I think it's January 1st 2029. There's the nine county ban on gas appliances.

Megan Micco:

Right, the Bay Area Air Quality District. I figure you're going to yeah, right.

Declan Spring:

So this is my understanding of it. It's fairly straightforward January 1st 2029, you want to get a new gas stove. You can't get a new one. I'm curious if there'd be like a secondhand market. I don't know, but it could be there. I guess you can still get things repaired.

Megan Micco:

So yeah, that's a really important point. So it's 2027 and 2029. Stoves, I believe, are not in the 2027, but the 2029. It's gas furnaces and water heaters in the first round.

Declan Spring:

Okay.

Megan Micco:

And it does not mean you need to pull out functioning items.

Declan Spring:

Right.

Megan Micco:

At the end of their economic life, when they've either gone defunct or you're considering the upgrade, that's when you need to do it. So after 2027, if your water heater went out, like mine did, and flooded the basement. We put in a heat pump water heater. So for everyone that's worried that someone's going to come and knock on your door and take your gas stove, that's not happening.

Declan Spring:

They can't do that. That would be an overreach.

Megan Micco:

Right. And then I would say you know, when I transitioned from a gas stove to an induction range, which I love, and if anyone has any questions about how to cook on it, reach out to me I actually found someone who a seller through a colleague of mine who wanted to take their range and have the exact same 36 inch space and so we moved it into their space, so that stove did not go to landfill, and then I got my induction, so it was really.

Megan Micco:

I think there's going to be a time of transition where we're not junking these items, because clearly that doesn't really solve the problem by just jettisoning a bunch of things into landfill, right?

Declan Spring:

So I think if we can be smart on how we can continue to use these items until they're no longer useful but right, you know, we're trying to improve air quality and burning methane is not it's not good for the environment although I will say that I was talking to somebody recently who's always had an interest in having like a really, really nice chef's stove, you know like a Wolf or Viking or whatever, just a really good one, and I said to them you know, you might want to get that in the next couple of years. They said why. I said, well, here's why. And it's like, oh, I'm going to go ahead and get that because that thing will last for years and years and years. Yeah, and so you know little things like that, but it dovetails well with this in Berkeley, this, this change to the Besso.

Megan Micco:

It does, it works, it works nicely Again back to your Venn diagram idea.

Declan Spring:

Like all of these things overlap and and need to be considered carefully, we kind of do need to sit down and kind of map it out, you know, when it comes to what your home improvement should be.

Megan Micco:

Absolutely.

Declan Spring:

And timelines and all that stuff, definitely definitely okay. This is why another reason well, I mean, I don't have a whole lot more to add to to that.

Declan Spring:

I think we've covered it pretty efficiently yeah, okay, all right, hopefully everybody's had a chance to understand that, and there's always a transcript available for the podcast, so anybody who wants to just read through it, they they can. This will all be in the transcript, but then okay. So I wanted to talk about something the Ember Ordinance, which is very specific to Berkeley and I really don't know too much about it.

Megan Micco:

Specific and spicy, and I think we're going to get some strident opposition from certain residents in Berkeley. So let's get into it and talk about it. It's also very confusing with the nomenclature. I'm not sure that you found it confusing, but I found it quite confusing between the fire zones and then the zone zero, and so let's try.

Declan Spring:

You're the expert here, I'm the pupil. I'm going to learn from you a little bit here. Honestly.

Megan Micco:

Let's try to talk through it together, so it makes sense. So maybe you want to kick it off and introduce it.

Declan Spring:

All right, so well, it together, so it makes sense. So maybe you want to kick it off and introduce it. All right, so well. What I'm reading in front of me, what I was able to find, is that there's a berkeley ember ordinance and it's effective january 1st 2026. Now I'll just read from what I have berkeley is advancing wildfire prevention through ember, which is effective mitigation for berkeley's ember resilience ordinance, and the regulation mandates the creation of a Zone Zero, a five-foot ember-resistant buffer around homes in high-fire zones. Now that sounds good to me. I'm going to let you take it from here.

Megan Micco:

Perfect stopping time. So that is relatively clear. The part that's a bit confusing is that the city of Berkeley currently has three different fire zones. There's one, two and three Okay, and there is a proposal to do zone four which would start at Grizzly Peak and go to Wildcat. So that's going to be voted on whether we should do the zone four at the June 17th meeting.

Declan Spring:

I mentioned a zone zero, so I don't want people to get thrown off.

Megan Micco:

Well, so this is why it's confusing. We should talk about it. So the city zones for fire risk are zones one, two, three and we have a proposal for zone four. The zone zero relates to a zero clearance five feet around the property.

Declan Spring:

Ah, okay, so it's property. So it's property specific Okay, Got it so for zones three, you'll need zone zero clearance.

Megan Micco:

It's tricky because they're both called zones but they mean different things.

Declan Spring:

Okay, got it.

Megan Micco:

So, zone three is, you said, so what's zone four Zone four is a proposal, so it has not been adopted yet. Right now we only have zones 1, 2, and 3. Most of Berkeley is in zone 1. Zone 1 goes from the water let's call it up to Shattuck. And then zone 2 is from Shattuck maybe up to Grizzly, and then there's zone 3 at. Panoramic Hill. It's a tiny little circle on Panoramic Hill, and then the proposed zone 4 would be from Grizzly Peak stretching to Wildcat.

Megan Micco:

And what the city's trying to do with that proposed zone four is to cause a fire break for the city, so that would be again. This is confusing. Zone zero clearance. So, no personal items, no shrubs, no tall trees five feet around any structure. So we create a fire break and that's the most stringent requirement would be zone zero that you have to clear all that out, no fences.

Declan Spring:

Okay.

Megan Micco:

You have to have breaks, so the fire can't jump.

Declan Spring:

Okay Now, I hate to repeat myself, but just let me know if I got this right Sure the zone four is proposed from approximately Grizzly Peak back into Tilden Correct, okay. And Zone 4 houses would need to be more resilient and have a Zone 0 on the property, five feet of clearance around the house.

Megan Micco:

That's correct, got it and the city council vote. This is just a proposal.

Declan Spring:

Got it.

Megan Micco:

So they'll be voting on June 17th.

Declan Spring:

June 17th.

Megan Micco:

And then the compliance is supposed to be by the following January, which is why I say there's going to be strident opposition, because that's a very short timeline. And I think your question earlier about older people, people that don't have a lot of economic resources I think this is a really interesting question about how we're actually going to get it done.

Declan Spring:

That's a pretty short period of time. That's very short.

Megan Micco:

I have concerns about how practical or impractical that timeline is. So you know, I've been chatting with some people in the hills and there's a feeling of you know, a lot of difficulty around how they're going to get it done. Contractors are really busy. The city estimates this work is going to cost I think it's about $2,900. But in many cases, you know, there's just not an availability of workers. So there's manifold challenges to meeting the requirement.

Declan Spring:

Yeah, and also I mean so the property itself. If you're in this proposed zone four, talk to me about, like roof structures siding there's cedar siding up on houses up there. There's all kinds of beautiful property, but very, very much, yeah, it's all wood. There's a lot of beautiful property, but very, very much, yeah, it's all wood. There's a lot of wood exterior.

Megan Micco:

Such a great question. I don't know much about siding, but I do know there's something about trees that they can't reach the roof line. They have to be a certain amount much taller than the roof so that the fire won't jump. You can have potted plants instead of a lot of shrubbery against the house. If someone just put in a wood fence, that's going to be really unfortunate because that's going to need to be removed. We're looking at more like deer type fencing that's metal. For example, you could potentially have a wood fence in some areas but you'd need to have a fire break, meaning there'd have to be a metal portion.

Declan Spring:

Yes.

Megan Micco:

So you know, thinking about how you're going to make these upgrades, what contractors are going to be available to do them, who has the knowledge of this information, what materials can be used. It's not super straightforward.

Declan Spring:

Right, Realistically, the heat of a fire is really like. I'm just thinking because I was talking to a home inspector recently who was poo-pooing this a little bit and saying have you ever seen what happens to these houses in a really severe wildfire like they had in Palisades? You can have five feet on every house. The houses are gone.

Megan Micco:

It doesn't matter, especially the ones that are grizzly to wildcat, that are basically in the forest.

Declan Spring:

Do we?

Megan Micco:

really think that having this zone zero mitigation fire attempt around it is going to stop a fire that's ripping through a forest? I think it's a very reasonable question and concern. I was just going to say I do think there's a sentiment in the Berkeley Hills that if the city is going to make this potential zone four the fire break for the entire city, it should also be a citywide responsibility for funding this fire break.

Megan Micco:

If the city ostensibly benefits from it. It really the onus of complying shouldn't solely be on the people in zone four. That really feels sort of you know not fair Right.

Declan Spring:

So are they going to propose some kind of a tax thing?

Megan Micco:

Good question. I mean, I made a suggestion and I would love if this would actually happen in the city. Who's going to do it If during escrow, when realtors were closing a transaction, that they could make a small contribution of whatever amount they wanted $5, $50, $1,000 to a city fund that would help with some of these climate initiatives?

Megan Micco:

So, someone low-income people would have a fund to draw from. I know I mean we benefit from the housing and we make a fairly good living. I would love if we had a fund that made it really easy, where you could just tell escrow. I want to give $50 of my commission to this program to help lower income people.

Declan Spring:

I think that's always a nice idea, and most of us realtors contribute to our community somehow.

Megan Micco:

Of course, absolutely. I'm not suggesting that we don't, but I think to make it really easy to facilitate it.

Declan Spring:

Right, so you said June 17th.

Megan Micco:

Yes, that's when they're going to take the vote. The city council.

Declan Spring:

Okay, so when is the next opportunity, though? Before then, the people can demonstrate their opposition.

Megan Micco:

Now.

Declan Spring:

Now. It's ongoing Just now.

Megan Micco:

Contact the city or council. People give feedback.

Declan Spring:

Right. So if if you're a Berkeley resident and you were unaware of this, or you're a realtor who works a lot in Berkeley and you were unaware of this, you need to get on the phone to your, to your Berkeley people, having them talk to their council person, because this is a big deal.

Megan Micco:

And definitely there's informational sessions. And so there's going to be town halls in person and on Zoom and so, if you're curious about that or anyone wants more information, they are doing a rollout of information so people can get up to speed and comment.

Declan Spring:

Well, listen, this has been great. I wanted to keep it fairly brief because these are big things that people are now going to have to investigate themselves, and I did want to say, oh yeah, so let's go over the contact info for you and I will have it in the show notes. Of course I will, but let's just tell everybody where they can find you.

Megan Micco:

My name is Megan Miko. Everybody where they can find you, my name is Megan Miko. I work at Compass Real Estate. My email is Megan at Megan Miko M-E-G-A-N-M-I-C-C-O, and my cell phone's 510-708-9952. You can find me in all the usual places Instagram, facebook, linkedin and my own website. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and talking about this incredibly important stuff here that we have to deal with. Thank you for inviting me.

Declan Spring:

Let me tell you about next week's podcast, because it's going to be a little bit different and you're invited. It's going to be in front of a live audience. Live audience David Gunderman hosts a series of conversations with agents at the Keller Williams office at 2089 Rose Street and he invites a live audience. He calls this series of conversations humble beginnings. The audience is not limited to realtors or Keller Williams agents. Everybody is welcome.

Declan Spring:

So I'm the next guest on his show, 2089 Rose Street. This is going to be Fr iday May 16, at 12 pm and David's going to be throwing some questions at me and I'll try and answer and we'll see what happens. I'm going to edit, I'm going to record the conversation as well, I'm going to edit that down and that's. Thank you, david. He's going to allow me to have that as the content for next week's podcast. Okay, so all right. That said, podcast. Okay, so all right. That said, let's do the closing credits. This episode was edited by me, with original music by Chuck Lindo and graphics by Lisa Mazur. The podcast is brought to you by the Home Factor Realtors, thehomefactorcom. Catch up on the latest news from the East Bay Market in their weekly blog, published every Saturday at thehomefactorcom. If you'd like to reach out to me with suggestions for the show, please text me at 415-446-8591. Catch you on the next podcast, everybody.